??? Did you mean to reply to me? Because I think it should be obvious from my thoughts above that my answer is do whatever you feel like doing/is most convenient for the post; if I care enough I’m more than capable of translating.
For the record, I know my schmaltz from my schmutz.
Whoa. I personally see nothing wrong w/ @catholiver’s question. I’m Chinese, but I don’t read it. And, yes, I know how to use Google translate just fine. And, since you apparently all know about Google translate, you also know that it frequently translates things incorrectly, sometimes to the point where entire sentences are unintelligable. So even w/ using an on-line translator, you might be able to get the main point of an article but might entirely miss the nuances (and what are we doing on a food board, if we aren’t going to talk about nuance?).
And, honestly, sometimes when poster link entire paragraphs and articles in a different language, it sometimes feel to me like the “cool” kids are (in part) trying to make other people feel left out and that there’s some level of showing off involved (which isn’t surprisingly, given that it’s a food forum). And that’s totally fine; showing off can be fun for all involved. But it can also be a litlte annoying, I think it’s also fine to be called out on that.
And when@catholiver points out that it seems to happen most frequently (but perhaps only) w/ Chinese, I don’t think that’s an inaccurate. And so I think it’s completely hysterical (and ironic) that people post about “privilege” w/o understand that it works both ways. And I say this as someone who’s ethnically Chinese, understands Mandarin verbally (sort of), and gets super annoyed when I’m out and about in Alhambra, get asked a question in Mandarin and then get a dirty look when I respond in English (and when the person who asked the question to begin w/ then continues to speak to me in perfect English).
Even if you’re fine w/ multiple langauges being used, taken to an extreme, we’re all gonna be so busy using Google translate to understand each other that there won’t be any time left to interact otherwise.
That’s not the same thing at all. Writing a word or even a phrase in a language that someone else otherwise understands fluently isn’t necessarily as confusing because said person can still use the context of the sentence to figure out that meaning. Posting entire articles in a different language leaves out context.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with encouraging catholiver to use Google translate, but, with the world being the way it is and especially today, perhaps we can all try to more patient with each other, even someone expresses a sentiment you don’t agree with.
Taishan in Richmond appears to have moved to Oakland
Which question are you referring to? I don’t recall seeing any question to the effect of “I don’t read Chinese; could you please translate?” The question I saw was a passive-aggressive one, and I quote:
Which, to me, as a white, privileged, English-only-speaking Angeleno came off to me as more than a bit insensitive, at best.
I am also aware that no translation service is anywhere near perfect; but one can still get a decent gist most of the time. As to your point about missing the nuance, well, that’s what happens when one translates–it’s simply part and parcel of translating; Shakespeare is way less poetic/impactful when translated into Chinese, just as many poetic idioms are lost translating from Chinese to English. Same with shared cultural references.
As you said: “food forum”; we show off every time we post about “the absolute best” whatever. Personally, I don’t feel insecure or annoyed when I come across someone speaking or writing in another language, and I certainly don’t immediately jump to “the ‘cool kids’ are talking about me in code.” I feel it’s incredibly self-involved to take something like a few lines in Chinese or whatever other language so personally, but mileage may vary on that one.
I’ve seen posts in Spanish, French, Russian (or at least using the Cyrillic alphabet) and various dialects of Chinese here.
Who stated privilege doesn’t work both ways? I’ve certainly never said that. I remember when I was aged 10 and in Catholic school, and the girls who didn’t like being required to participate in gym class decided to start a rumor that the male gym teacher was opening the locker room door to perv on them to try and get him fired. In reality, they didn’t want to go to gym class, were hiding out in the locker room, and the teacher was only opening the door a crack to be able to call through and tell them to hurry up and get into the gym. At age 9/10, in the 4th grade, these girls knew the power they held accusing a male teacher of perving on them. So yes, I am and have been quite well aware that privilege goes both ways.
Where was it taken to an extreme? I see ONE POST (unedited) with both Mandarin Wikipedia and English Wikipedia on Traditional Cantonese dishes, followed by ONE POST with the gist of it in English, two dish names in Chinese (completely contextually apparent that this is referring to Taiwanese/Cantonese names for a variant of the same dish), and then supporting links of two sites in Chinese (Taiwanese/Hokkien dialect?).
So, a total of TWO POSTS, neither of which were unintelligible to this English-only speaker, that contained a total of 2 dish names in Chinese and a quote from Chinese-language sources backing up the poster’s claim are what prompted the initial complaint of posters posting in non-English.
That, to me, seems like the extreme overreaction.
So you’re suggesting that our posters should go through the process of translating source material into English before posting? That seems pretty unreasonable to me.
Even after a translation was provided by @secretasianman , the insistence on using English continued. In my opinion, it was about far more than needing translation services for a measly 2 posts in a then-15-post thread containing a handful of Chinese characters.
But of course, your mileage always may vary.
ooh. i apparently turned up the flame and then left the building.
in this particular instance, i personally found the request to translate superfluous - the thrust of the post was IMO authenticating the dish as part of the regional cuisine. but i did it anyway, partly as a courtesy but mainly to illustrate that even having a translation didn’t mean much. and i was caught off guard by the response that suggested that it needs to be done all the time. i disagree and apparently i am not the only one who feels this way.
there’s a lot of tunnel vision that goes on here, but that tends to reflect how many posters here have very specific interests and gather here to discuss these interests with like minded people. i would categorize myself that way. and the term food geek probably would be apropos - with certain types of geek behavior including a tendency to speak using unfamiliar terms and abbreviations for brevity and be oblivious to anything except the topic. it’s just what it is.
because i’m curious about ethnic cuisines in general, if i see an unfamiliar term in a header i invariably click on the thread just to find out what it is. if someone throws out a term i don’t recognize, i google it. it’s my standard MO for this board based on my expectations for the posters here. it’s like i’m auditing graduate level classes and it’s my responsibility to understand the terminology rather than interrupt the class. but that’s me.
to be fair i note that most other ethnic cuisines even other asian cuisines get their dishes romanized using the western alphabet: galbijim, kimchi, what have you, probably because we don’t have a critical mass of posters fluent in written korean. LA is the home for the most diverse collection of chinese regional cuisine outside of china. more significantly, we also have a critical mass of posters who are fluent enough in chinese that they contribute in selected posts using chinese. i happen to be ethnically chinese, but i am not fluent. if i’m curious, i google/translate on occasion.
when it comes to certain terms, i know many of these terms only in chinese, or romanized. so those are the terms (or abbreviations) i use for brevity. some of us have taken flack for that, and we tried to put a glossary out there on CH for those wanting to come up to speed especially when we start abbreviating restaurant names like DTF that serves XLB etc.
the bottom line is that we often resort to shorthand and terminology known to regular participants in various guises for brevity. when clarification is requested it’s usually provided with good humor. but if i felt a responsibility to dumb down every post like a newspaper article (6th grade audience) i’d probably just quit posting because it just wouldn’t be worth the trouble… i’m a food geek relating to other food geeks.
y’know, i think this is about the most bullshit discussion i’ve read on this site.
someone asked, thinking (rightly or wrongly, it really doesn’t matter) this was an english language site, if folks
could translate their chinese into english when they post.
the response was, why don’t you look it up?
neither the question nor the answer is right or wrong. as john cusak says in ‘high fidelity,’ how can you be wrong for
stating a preference?
anything else is just horse and buggy rationalization and differing OPINIONS on what constitutes good manners. welcome to earth, 2017,
it can’t be solved, folks have demonstrated where they stand and who they are. why not just put a fucking amen to it?
To me, it came off as, “Oh, if I don’t understand Chinese, maybe I’m not welcome on the LA board and should stop reading/participating there.”
Of course, neither of us really know what’s going on in @catholiver’s mind since neither of us bothered to ask her. And that’s sort of my point. Where you see an “insistence,” I simply saw someone making a genuine request for help from other posters.
For all I know, catholiver might have arthritic fingers and might have difficulty cutting and pasting into Google translate (my mother is nearly blind and would have significant trouble w/ the cutting and pasting that some of you think is a relatively simple task b/c she needs to have the computer read what’s on the screen).
And I’m not sure why you think catholiver only speaks English and is based in LA? I truly have no idea if she speaks any other languages. And, unless you know her, you don’t know, either. Her profile says that she’s in Lake Tahoe/Reno.
My main experience w/ her is from a post where she was really helpful about providing recs for my visit to Sonoma. I’ve seen a few other threads from her on the board, and she’s always seemed pleasant in those threads. She might be horribly mean in real life, but, when my only (and, admittedly, limited) experience of someone has been pleasant, I’m inclined to cut them some slack if they say something “passive-aggressive.” But perhaps you have had a different previous experience of her…
Don’t flatter yourself.
meow
Well, my goodness, you do flatter me. But I meant no offense. While I will do some ‘translating’ on some issues, not for food. It’s not THAT important to me. Sorry and thanks again, kiddo.
Heh. Meant to add that at the end.
You’re seriously suggesting that is a reasonable conclusion to come to based off of 2 posts in 1 thread out of thousands on the LA board? Really?
Nowhere did I make either of those assertions; you’re putting words in my mouth, and I don’t appreciate a strawman argument. In my posts, the only time I mentioned the word “Angeleno” was in reference to myself. The only time I mentioned “only” speaking English was also in reference to myself. I made no assumptions whatsoever about @catholiver or his/her/their motivations; I merely stated my opinion as to how the series of posts insisting on English was coming off to me.
This is exactly how I read the situation as well.
This is an excellent analogy–thank you for that. I share this attitude, as well, but regardless of my agreement I think you really communicated that perspective quite well. Bravo, sir.
I agree. The day I’m chastised for posting about XLB or xialongbao instead of “steamed soup dumplings” or gai lan instead of “Chinese broccoli” is the day I’m giving up talking about food in LA online. Is there even an adequate English translation for bao? “Bun” just doesn’t quite get there…
Can we let this go already? The dead horse has been dragged way off the track and is beaten beyond recognition.
ladies and gentlemen, please welcome internationally renowned recording artist, IRONY:
i’m sure it’s just that nasty privilege filter that viciously and automatically translated 小笼包 (小籠包)
and 芥兰 (芥蘭) without your permission.
Ewww communist shorthand writing
Then I apologize for misreading your post. And I agree w/ the others that it’s perhaps best for both of us to let this go.
I was responding to @secretasianman and his point, hence my embedded quote. As I’ve made abundantly clear in this thread, I do not speak/read/write Chinese. I’m not sure what’s ironic about my post, as it seems quite in line with my larger points: 1) nuance gets lost in translation / sometimes there aren’t always good equivalents across languages, and 2) agreeing with @secretasianman that sometimes it’s far more convenient to use a commonly-understood, non-English term (at least on a food board) vs. needing to translate and “dumb down” to a 6th grade level every single post in the name of accessibility.
If you could please clarify your post, I would be happy to check my “nasty” privilege (as you put it 
), if need be.
i’ll sign out of this (for realskies, i promise this time) with the immortal words of dick ballantine, circa 1974:
whatever you say, rabbi.
You can always shoot me a PM if you’d prefer. Cheers
I didn’t intend to start anything. Just a comment.