the problem with this argument is the notion of “jewish cheeseburger” being somehow disrespectul or culturally insensitive.
theres no such thing as a jewish cheeseburger. foodstuffs cannot “be” jewish.
a cheeseburger is considered non kosher and in violation, so to speak, of jewish dietary laws. i dont keep kosher, but even if i did, i dont think non kosher food is disrespectful.
ive not met the orthodox jew who finds non kosher foods disrespectful or insensitive. they simply dont eat them.
i will defer to the religious scholars here to inform the board whether non kosher food is considered offensive according to halakha.
i suppose if you knew someone was kosher, and purposely served them a cheeseburger, that would be a dick move.
has that happened?
there are “jewish” delis – maybe more accurately called “jewish style” – that serve non kosher foods in a vaguely eastern european vein.
again, i dont know any orthodox who are offended by these places. they just dont go, unless they are kosher.
I don’t want to wade too deeply into this because I am not well-versed in the topic to argue with precision.
However, I would like to add another layer to what @secretasianman and @ipsedixit brought up. I think there is a critical power dynamic at play here, too. We aren’t talking about Guatemalan or Salvadorean chefs co-opting say French food because French chefs have had the privilege to represent their own cuisine and garner general respect for that food. That isn’t necessarily the case for Thai chefs cooking Thai food. Places like LA may be an exception to that. But one could argue that even here in LA we haven’t always been as welcoming to say Mexican chefs presenting their cuisine as one that should be respected at the highest levels. If we did, perhaps we would have had more ambitious Mexican restaurants in the city.
So I think that power dynamic in which one group can feel marginalized while a privileged group mainstreams an element of culture that isn’t theirs can be a bitter pill to swallow.
Whether those perceptions hold any merit, I will leave to other in this particular thread. It would seem, though, that those perceptions are real and we ought to recognize them.
I think you mean example, not argument. @ipsedixit’s argument on the whole can still be considered even if you think his examples meant to illustrate the argument are not as sound as you’d like.
its possible you are correct. its also possible i used that particular example to perhaps poke a hole in the notion that any food can be disrespectful or insensitive.
im not sure what the hell i meant. sometimes i comment without thinking.
I understood the position. Perhaps I meant to minimize the hole you intended to poke.
Anyways, literally everything I write should really end with: I could be wrong. Shit, it would be more accurate to say I probably am wrong.
But yes, if one could simply isolate a foodstuff entirely from the cultural apparatus that it is a part of then perhaps we could say no foodstuff, in and of itself, is disrespectful or insensitive.
That’s why I questioned @ipsedixit example (although I understood and respect his point). I’m certainly not a professional chef (and not as knowledgable as many of the non pros here!), but I can identify something that tastes vaguely like Indian food, vaguely like Chinese food, vaguely like Thai food. As ipse mentioned, it’s presumably b/c certain ethnic cuisine’s tend to frequently utilize particular flavor combinations.
My point, as is yours (sort of), is that ipse’s examples are sufficiently different from what the article is talking about so as to be a totally different matter altogether. Of course I’d never want to serve a piece of steak (esp a rare one) to a devout Hindu. That WOULD be unquestionably a dick move. But that’s not what the article is mentioning at all, IMHO.
Okay, I think this is more of what I’m wondering about. I do think of the power dynamic in a different way, though. Perhaps we don’t talk about Central American chefs co-opting French flavors (or more French techniques, really) b/c French food/techniques are considered ASPIRATIONAL and b/c a central American chef using those techniques would be viewed as “elevating” whatever he/she’s cooking? Upward mobility is perhaps more acceptable? And, of course, that brings up the notion of why we might assume French food/techniques to be superior to begin w/.
The other thing to consider is internalized racism. I think my parents (who are Chinese) would have less of a problem dropping $$$ on, say, a fancy French meal than spending the same amount of $$$ on a Chinese meal. Part of that might be generational, too.
But what if the privileged group gave “due credit” (however you want to define that) to the culture from which the flavors originated and hoped that their use of it would bring more attention to the original source?
What really got my attention in the article was this:
“I still maintain that I think food is an incredibly, incredibly central feature of cultural identities and incredibly important and can be damaged and harmed when it is treated cavalierly or casually or without attention to the fact that dishes, cuisines — well, particularly dishes — have all kinds of roles in particular societies, cultures, such that this one we use for really special events has particular symbolic meaning or religious meaning,” Heldke says. “Having said that, I know a lot of insiders to the culture would say, ‘Yeah, I just eat it,’ so I don’t want to be all precious about something either.”
IMHO, “flavors” are different than “dishes,” and “dishes,” IMHO, have much more potential cultural significance than does “flavor” (and thus it is possible to treat a DISH w/ disrespect much more than it is possible to treat a FLAVOR w/ disrespect). And then the professor notes that even “insiders to the culture” often admit that they just eat a dish w/o necessarily much of an understanding themselves of the cultural context.
Treating something in an overly precious way can also be insulting and can also be a form of objectification (IMHO)…
I hope my posts aren’t taken as me trying to say that food has no relevance to a culture and that there aren’t totally tone-deaf ways of approaching food and culture. I actually just find all this stuff really fascinating and was trying to drill down in more concrete terms what the article tantalizingly references (but doesn’t really specifically talk about).
i wonder, though, how you’re defining “privleged” and “elevating.”
that might be in the eye of the beholder; i’m unsure.
for example, let’s say a guatemalen chef uses french ingredients or techniques. 1) where is the privilege? and 2) who’s to
say that “elevates” the guatemalen chef’s food, or guatemalen food?
or, vice versa; french chef, guatemalen ingredients/techniques.
perhaps the “privilege” and “cultural insensitivity” begins and ends with the writer describing or reporting on the food?
just spitballing. if we take an egalitarian view of foodstuffs – strictly ‘value’ wise, divorced from a religious or ceremonial context – maybe all this goes out the window?
I’m okay with white chefs cooking ethnic foods as long as they are priced like ethnic foods. i’m not paying you 100% more just because the description of your food is twice as long.
Same reasoning why I have no problem, in theory, of $$$$ Chinese food–but I won’t be willing to pay 4x for a dish that doesn’t taste 3-4x better than what I can get for $ at some hole-in-the-wall on Valley Blvd. I’m all about that QPR, baby
Well, lucky you, higher quality produce tastes a lot better to me, more than 2x better sometimes, so I guess I’m on the other side. I suppose I wouldn’t be if I didn’t taste any difference between ingredients.
I’m with @Aesthete on this one. Fresh top quality mustard greens or Chinese broccoli have a flavor and texture that is not duplicated by old, supermarket-quality produce.
Or at regular restaurants, I can taste differences in the quality of the ubiquitous arugala, broccoli sprouts or kale you find on menus all over town. Even basil on pizza, some is completely flavorless, while good basil has a bite and a strong scent.
The difference between quality basil and normal basil is ridiculous haha
I guess it is some kind of curse to have to spend more money on these things for people that taste a difference. It is interesting that some (many? most?) people cannot. I can see where people must feel supremely ripped off at certain restaurants if that is the case.
“I’m okay with white chefs cooking ethnic foods as long as they are priced like ethnic foods.”
i think we can all agree there are a lot of factors that determine the price of food in restaurants,
and the ethnicity of said restaurants is possibly one of them.
hey, who determines which ethnic foods are cheap and which aren’t, by the way?
seems kind of arbitrary.
@paranoidgarliclover’s comment about internalized racism is worth examining. I think we’ve had the discussion about parental voices in our head as we buy a $10. bahn mi or spend $75. on BBQ for two. But spending $200 on a French meal seems appropriate . These messages trickle down and say “we’re less than”. When in reality, some Chinese cooking techniques are just as difficult and impressive as French (imo). I can see how this could make some prickly about “white boy” appropriation. But we might also have to admit - to make a living - previous generations have already bastardized some ethnic foods. Maybe helping to create some of the stereotypes that make it hard for the next generation to get the recognition. I’m not just talking Chinese or Thai, it’s Italian, Mexican, etc.
I actually think the “white boy” names are kinda’ self-conscious. Like “Hey. Look. I don’t take myself serious either.” Hence one of the chefs phasing-out the moniker. But if they’re using a culture as inspiration and not trying to pass themselves off as representatives of the culture, then . Plus some of the dishes described in the article did seem yummy .
Can I add a bit about the lack of respect for Mexican chefs? Rick Bayless’s win on the first season of Top Chef Masters. Stay with me. I know he’s white. But he’s not doing “white boy” Mexican food. He’s doing authentic and complex Mexican. And you know what? He kicked Hubert Keller’s, Ludo’s & Defresne’s asses. You could see the other chefs were kind of taken aback. The Mexican cooking guy from Chicago with a show on PBS. What? Maybe people will argue he’s been able to elevate Mexican cooking and get recognition because he’s white. But he’s not doing it as a gimmick.
P.S. I don’t know if this is true, but growing up, my mom & aunt (great cooks) always said some of the best French chefs in the world are from Mexico City. So there.
[quote=“frommtron, post:25, topic:4931”]
I could be wrong. Shit, it would be more accurate to say I probably am wrong.
[/quote]Wrong. You’re doing fine.
. These messages trickle down and say “we’re less than”. When in reality, some Chinese cooking techniques are just as difficult and impressive as French (imo). I can see how this could make some prickly about “white boy” appropriation. But we might also have to admit - to make a living - previous generations have already bastardized some ethnic foods. Maybe helping to create some of the stereotypes that make it hard for the next generation to get the recognition. I’m not just talking Chinese or Thai, it’s Italian, Mexican, etc.
. Plus some of the dishes described in the article did seem yummy 
.