When did ethnic foods become "so expensive"?

I completely agree with Chef Minh that asians insisting her food should be cheap is plainly racist. I don’t think its hyperbole to suggest that we extend certain liberties like using better better ingredients warrants a high price to some chefs but not others. The disparate judgments usually fall along race lines, white chefs and “ethnics”.

We don’t have discussions like these:

Why would I pay $8 for a HiHo cheeseburger when I can get the whole meal for $8 at In n Out?

Why would I pay $30 for pasta at Felix when I can get the same and more authentic thing at Pasta Sisters for half the price?

I don’t ask these questions because I recognize there are varying degrees of craftsmanship and quality of ingredients. Why don’t asian american chefs cooking deserve the same freedoms?

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I’ve seen comments like that here about pizza.

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But we DO sort of have those conversations here, to some extent, and the restaurants you’ve chosen aren’t really direct competitors.

When I eat a HiHo burger, I don’t think of In and Out b/c I think In and Out is absolutely disgusting. And HiHo is in an area where rent must be phenomenally expensive, so, for some of us (me included), the predominant thought is that it’s borderline miraculous that you can get a fulling meal of respectable quality for ~$10 that far west in Santa Monica.

I’ve definitely seen one poster make a comment in a Pasta Sisters thread that the same thing would cost double the price at Felix, so I’m not sure what thread you might’ve missed. And Felix, unless I missed something, is a full service restaurant, so it makes sense that it might be more expensive?

I openly questioned why I should pay $$$ for Bulgarini pasta when the service was… not up to par, shall we say.

The other thing is supply vs. demand. There’s a gigantic commnunity full of places serving rice porridge at a price that’s much less than P+P. How many places are serving great pasta for 1/2 the price of Felix? Is it pretty much just Pasta Sisters? That changes the whole conversation.

I think what some people in this thread might be pointing out is that the craftsmanship and quality of ingredients may not result in a better-tasting product.

So, while having more sustainable food sources and treating your employees better will necessarily drive up costs and are “good” things in principle, the environmental and social justice aspects that cause the higher prices will likely be of no importance to an older generation of East Asian customers who might still needed to help generate revenue for food that might be too overtly “foreign” for another population of people who could easily afford those prices.

Did the people who said Porridge & Puffs was too expensive actually not think it was better than cheap places? If so, maybe they’re similar to people who think In-N-Out’s burgers are as good as any.

I think the argument that insisting “ethnic” food be cheap is racist depends on the more expensive product tasting better.

To me, and to reiterate Chef Minh, the main issue is about race and racist assumptions of “ethnic food”. Again and again these conversations start out with the prevailing assumption that this kind of food should be cheap and “authentic”. Eurocentric food doesn’t really carry the same burden. People don’t assume that Italian/French/New American food should be cheap prior to trying it out.

And yes In N out/HiHo are different. They really aren’t direct competitors, in the same way that P+P is not competing with Four Seas or Sea Harbour. They’re completely different products with different clientele, but they’re judged under the same “ethnic food” monolith?

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Hi @paranoidgarliclover -

That’s a really good perspective. Basically, it’s not that you, @Ns1 @Sgee & others are saying Chef Minh doesn’t have the right to tweak tradition and charge more for it but there may not be a big enough market to sustain it? Hmmm… I’m keeping my fingers crossed for her and moving Porridge + Puffs higher up on my list of places to checkout.

TBC… :relaxed:

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OK some hard facts to add to this colorful discussion.

I guess P&P pricing is in-line with her competitors. Pretty much in the ballpark of good congee options in Lala-land.

Ironically :relaxed:, P+P might actually be the value leader in this category :smile:. Hmmm SO’s regular spot Bonjuk appears to be wayyyy overpriced :thinking:.

May I recommend Chef Minh redirect her frustrations through enlightening consumers on her restaurant’s relative QPR compared to her OG competitors supported by hard cold #s.

VS


not gonna

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The pricing may be, but what about the portions? The competitors you listed seem to be at least twice as large as pp.

my portion

And that’s one of the main complaints on yelp. These are the reviews from “self-hating racist Asian Yelpers” Chef Minh is probably referring to. She does have a 4.5 average on yelp so clearly not everyone agrees.



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Amuse-bouche size for you :joy:

It appears she just needs to increase the quantity of the primary and least expensive component of her dish… the porridge… Problem solved. This is what happens when you have Asian kids raised in prosperous western countries :roll_eyes:.

Porridge dish in Asia … ingredients cost $0.75 and serves 2 pax …Porridge ratio is 5x - 10x to everything else (depending on one’s state of prosperity). The whole point of porridge is a cheap filler! @Ns1 is right she needs to reposition this as risotto or something else or continue being denigrated by “self-hating racist Asian Yelpers” for her deserved ignorance.

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But that’s my point. I don’t know if they are different clienteles yet b/c I don’t know if non-Asian people are going to “get” porridge to want to try it at any price, and Asian people (or at least this Asian person) don’t consider it an “ethnic” food.

It’s food that my parents made or purchased when they were too tired/busy/bored to do something else, so I don’t even really get why anyone orders it any restaurant, regardless of price (although my confusion is significantly less intense at $8/bowl vs. $16 for a bowl of something half the size). The few times my parents have ordered it, I find the texture too smooth (although I think the additional umami that our home version didn’t have).

Admittedly, I’m not the biggest rice porridge fan, but I eat out all the time, and I’ve never considered ordering it ever. It’s also something that I strongly and exclusively associate w/ breakfast, so I’d be completely baffled by eating it at another time of day, just like I don’t order waffles (or even have an urge to order waffles) anywhere in the evening. Those kind of sense memories do not die easily. Of course, other people will differ.

Dumplings, OTOH, is something I order all the time when I go out, and it’s also something we made at home (and I really liked the ones we made at home). And it’s something I associate w/ lunch or dinner (more w/ dinner, actually).

You hear about dumpling specialists all over the SGV. You don’t hear about porridge specialists (although I’m sure @JThur01 or @ipsedixit will correct me, if I’m wrong). I think there’s a reason for that.

I do agree that there’s an internalized racism that guides the price of much of non-Western food, but I just don’t think porridge is a good example of that.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I am saying (don’t want to speak for @Ns1 or @Sgee :wink: ). Please, by all means, tweak tradition w/ the porridge and elevate it b/c I honestly find it boring as all hell otherwise.

But, for people who have feelings about it and associate it w/ being comfort food made by grandma (or something that you grab quickly at a super cheap Asian cafe), your $16 version better be filling and tasty AF. B/c, if it isn’t, we’re not going to order it, regardless of how fancy your ingredients are or how well you pay your staff. And there may not be enough people outside of this group to support the business.

The closest thing I can think of for Western food might be chicken. @SpockSpork is completely confused by places that charge $50 and more for… chicken. It’s something he and his family make for a fraction of the price, and he makes a delicious bird. The idea of paying a lot of $ for it is completely ridiculous to him (to the point where he won’t order it at a restaurant at any price).

California Chicken Cafe does crazy good business b/c it sells cheap-ish chicken. I can’t think of any place that could sustain itself solely from elevated chicken dishes. Is this racism? Not IMO.

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@paranoidgarliclover you obviously never had any baller porridge meals :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

porridge

Okay, that is DEFINITELY not the way my family had porrridge!!! :smiley: Where is that from?

But it also brings up another interesting idea… Porridge was never the main course, for my family (except for breakfast). It’s like a place trying to sustain itself w/ variations on french fries w/o the steak or the burger. Not gonna happen.

But call it poutine, and it’s a whole 'nother ballgame… And even then, you’d still expect other types of entrees to be on the menu b/c you can only fries every so often…

Edit: I was discussing this thread w/ @SpockSpork, and he immediately said, “That sounds like a restaurant trying to support itself on nothing but variations of mashed potatoes.”

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US$29 AYCE

Off topic, but only briefly: I might be going to Singapore this winter! First time there. This place worth trying? B/c that spread seems divine.

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It’s a pretty good gluttonous spread if you are in the mood for porridge. It was my late night supper spot but looks like its served during regular dining hour these days. Still looks good though. There are more affordable options, just do a search for Teochew porridge.

Or you can hop to one of the popular Geylang (red light district) claypot frog porridge joints

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Out of curiosity, I looked up Shirley Chung’s Ms. Chi Cafe and Mei Lin’s Nightshade for their porridge/congee dishes. They sell for $11 and $20 respectively, though Ms. Chi’s version is vegetarian. How do those portion sizes compare with Minh Phan’s?
While I’d like to give it a try, I don’t find myself in the city often and when I do, it’s hard for me to pick P&P over all the other options. I see what @paranoidgarliclover is saying…this is a hard sell for folks who grew up eating this type of dish even though you want to respect the chef’s intent and and passion. Agree with @Ns1 that chef could probably be more successful if she called it Vietnamese/Asian risotto…the masses would likely fall for that one and agree to the price point.
That being said, I hope that this venture is successful because that will only aid in elevating Asian cuisine.

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Nightshade’s looks bigger than P&P’s. It’s a pretty substantial dish.

Speaking for myself only, I buy dim sum porridge because it’s so much better than what I had growing up. But it’s still only $6.

Have I ever wondered what $20 pho would taste like? Yes.

Have I ever wondered what $20 porridge would taste like? No. I would be trying it not because I generally want to eat high class porridge, but because I want a data point for this thread.

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Do Yelpers make similar complaints about Sqirl’s porridge?

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A few random comments:

To me, original ethnic versions as baseline comparisons are inevitable. Although the comparisons can be valid assuming one has had the original before and knows exactly what went into it. No point comparing inferior MSG jacked up product in a Chinatown or random place that is cheaper.

However if the approach and execution of the dish being questioned results in a variation or a finished product that is otherwise drastically or at least notably different, worthy of exploring, is delicious, then one should at the very least take into consideration cost, skill, technique, sourcing, and all sorts of other factors involved (not to mention rent, and also seeing what kind of clientele the establishment attracts as mainstays). Basically, keep an open mind. However people are people, and certain communities in the old world (as well as locals) are either narrow minded that way, do not care about that part and only think one way as a customer, yet they are completely oblivious to wage/living conditions, standard of living (amongst many other factors), and the way things are done around here. For example it is completely pointless to compare Taiwanese street food in Taipei (let alone OG Tainan) to that oyster noodle/pancake or pork intestine noodle you can find in the SGV that’s not even going to be close, larger portioned, lesser quality, and more expensive. Why lament this when other parts of California would also be happy to have something edible even if it is not close, since Northern California Taiwanese food scene is way sadder (e.g. we don’t even have a legit Taiwanese breakfast joint up here in the vein of Huge Tree, Four Seas, Yi Mei etc). It’s all perspective. Although if something that could have improved in the overseas version but the restaurant fails to execute in that manner, then any criticism of what could have made that dish better within reason, are all valid.

It is completely another discussion if someone is “hipsterfying” something, it ends up getting a Michelin star, and you know there are people doing something similar but totally next level and far better, so you have the right context to call out what is good or what is not good. I cannot comment on Porridge and Puffs, but I think I get where all these contrasting viewpoints are coming from. I don’t like the term “racist” being thrown around because we already live in a very polarized America where sensitivity and short fuses are the norm. Understandable if Chef Phan is being pigeon holed by her own kind and feels intense frustration by their lack of support and willing to embrace let alone understand, although she could add more fuel to the fire in a good way if there is proof those same people would gladly line up for say… $20 ramen (hypocrisy at its finest… we see this all the time in Hong Kong when some locals complain when the price of tiny bowl of legit Hong Kong wonton noodles which is a snack portion, is expensive, but they will gladly and quckly shell out $30 for a plate of high end pasta or $20 for tonkotsu ramen so thicc that glues your throat shut).

As far as the $20 ramen comment made earlier, that is a factor of the popularity of the noodle bowl itself that blew up in its own face outside of Japan; people hopping on bandwagon trends even without understanding the culture behind ramen and/or forcing themselves to like it (and even behaving as if they don’t want to be left behind), and others cashing in on the trend. You may have fierce competition in Japan and over here, but the cost of making that bowl is high enough that people are willing to pay for it (and wait an insane amount of time). Even more so if there’s an elevation of brand recognition (e.g. an official branch or franchise of a famous restaurant from Japan). The worst is having to spend extra in the event the restaurant prides itself on quality and goes the extra mile to source better quality ingredients, just to reproduce something remotely close to the original. We have already lost in terms of access and quality of ingredients here vs Japan (if using the ramen comparison), whether that pork is all naturally grown, organic grain fed free range chicken (and omega three rich eggs), and even then the quality is not even close. But this is different than the issue with Porridge and Puffs.

Real estate and the cost of doing business is skyrocketing, at least in Northern California/San Francisco. Some business owners might feel they need to do something completely different in order to stand out and survive. Kudos to those who stick to their guns and principles to try to do something different…but hopefully it is delicious. As far as places that have achieved success but the scope is limited and taste entirely subjective… I guess more power to them. For example, one Michelin star Mister Jiu’s in San Francisco…there are those who love the place to bits, and there are some like me and those in the Cantonese/Chinese community (including industry people) that absolutely do not get it nor agree with its high rating (and in fact I was very displeased with the quality and taste of the food during one visit). However I get the concept, Mister Jiu’s is not out to do “upscale comfort food” only, it is his own take and spin with his fine dining approach. By the nature of its design, it (food/restaurant/service entire package all combined) will delight and offend simultaneously. The quantity and quality of one’s reaction will vary according to sensitivity, proclivities/preferences, recognizing presence (or lack thereof) of details and many more.

The world is big enough for everything, even stuff that is not so good which is part of the variety. We have choices we can make. Nobody should tell others how they should make it, although it is sad if people make decisions either off the cuff or don’t care to inform themselves. But again, people are people. I’m just glad that in the case of Mister Jiu’s I can choose to end the evening with a bang bang, walk to my local favorite Chinatown greasy stir fry joint approved by Canto restaurant industry people (beef chow fun umami explosions with so much aromatic grease it looks shinier than a car with a new coat of Armor All) and wash down what I had at Jiu’s with a Tsing Tao with friends and hobble home with a smile on my face.

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