Hayato - ROW DTLA

I’m sure restaurants have analyzed the situation and determined that pricing bottles of alcohol 3 to 6 times retail is the best way to make a profit, but I can say that for me personally, it really turns me off. I’m not going to pay anyone hundreds of dollars on top of retail price because they stored a bottle and opened it for me. I’ll just drink it at home. I think restaurants should charge me more for the food.

Anyway, I don’t want to detract from a Hayato thread. It’s a really good place and I’m glad to see they’re still in business.

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I get it. And I think I am a generous, charitable person. But I’m not in the habit of giving business owners hundreds of dollars because I want them to survive. So while I drink a bottle of good wine or sake virtually every night at home, I often get cocktails instead when I go out to nice restaurants, because of the markup. The exceptions are places like Maude and Somni that have outstanding wine pairings.

It may well be that restaurants are making up their loss on me from someone else. I’m just saying they are losing me.

By the way, I believe I have been to Hayato twice, and each time I bought a bottle of sake. The sake didn’t seem that overpriced. I have a lot of good feelings toward Hayato, especially because of the Ishikawa connection. I don’t want to hijack a Hayato thread with this discussion of wine / sake markup.

A few years ago I would have echoed similar sentiments to yours as a consumer until I learned more about the restaurant industry up here and having friends that helped me paint a better picture of their pain points and the sake industry/supply chain (where I also have a few friends there). While this doesn’t apply to everyone, I can see things from the other side to an extent.

But another thing is that these are also extraordinary times where a little empathy or a sake purchase in this instance, really goes a long way. It may seem insignificant, but it adds up where it counts.

Far be it for us to tell someone else or criticize how to run their business, let alone judge their pricing models. Not everyone/business owner will be willing to share your view of upping the price of food for takeout, as the demographics differ (as do perceptions). Up here the first selling point for a sushi bento priced at $80 ish or more for takeout is perceived value, and thus the better it is, the more customers are drawn in, even if customers don’t buy alcohol.

By raising the baseline food pricing, a restaurant could easily alienate a larger target of people it was trying to attract (and this goes for whether it is a Michelin restaurant or a very high end respected one without a star but could pass off as one). And this is for e.g. a 16 piece sushi combo that sells for $100 or less, all containing high quality fish (putting aside the fact that seafood and other ingredients have different price tiers and some customers can tell the difference between $30 or below per pound kinmedai vs $50 per pound kinmedai, and some chefs unwilling to compromise for quality even if it eats into overhead so not to dilute the brand/quality). So the approaches are to either do volume and turnover, or do fewer quantities/very few/limited and raise the price.

In the case of orizume bento, and lunch bento at Hayato, quantities are limited for very specific reasons. They could sell more if they are able, but they cannot. The amount of time that goes into both are tremendous (and far greater for orizume). I think you may have forgotten to factor in how the lunch bento came to be (I’ve never had it but I remember how it started and why Brandon chose to do this) and I would be surprised if this broke even or recoup their basic costs. I get it, people’s perceived values are different, but once you realize the amount of work that goes in, it may shine a better light for some.

Second, when one pays for a bento at Resy, there is no (obvious) means to leave a tip/gratuity. Whereas if you buy a sake to go, chances are on the receipt you can unless it’s a straight up single transaction and the receipt doesn’t include the option (or if it is done through a software on a tablet or phone like Square, like at your typical boba shops which has the ability to add preset values in % for tips). There are people who want to tip extra and chip in to help, so this is a less obvious means. Dine in at certain establishments that levies a service charge and typically those do not cover gratuity.

Last but not least, sake is not like wine where you can find other means to acquire a certain bottle as easily. There are no K&L auctions for example for sake, and some wine shops don’t know how to handle/store sake properly (there were a couple in LA that would make my hairs crawl), and you guys don’t have a True Sake like shop like we do up here in San Francisco.

I can tell you that unless you know someone who can get you sake at wholesale, chances are 80% or more of the sake from Hayato’s menu you cannot get locally and a few that are not available even direct retail nationwide. I can also tell you that I know his sourcing and storage of sake will beat many retailers or other restaurants (I’m actually really impressed with what I learned of their sake storage temperature, it’s literally matching the most ideal conditions like certain places in Japan). Sure you can mail order, but you have no idea what will happen in transit. The sake list is picked by them for specific reasons (whether it pairs or not is subjective). It’s actually a very broad and well thought out selection, and the more I think about it just by looking at photos of the orizume bento by @J_L and @NYCtoLA I firmly believe the variety of flavor profiles contained from each compartment in the orizume bento will provide a fantastic range (and combination) of sake pairing experiences even for just one bottle alone, and it’s not just because of the different number of bites.

I get it, we all have limited resources, and who we want to throw our support around 100% to 200%. I’m sure I’m not alone, but I want Hayato to make it through and I believe in them, in addition for their support of sake which I’m sure you know by now is something important to me and my friends (so I’m seeing this in a slightly different way). You are entitled to your opinion, but I firmly believe this all needs to be said to clear the air, so that people are more informed, and they can trust, should they choose to show support for sake in addition to Hayato. Not sure if you also realize, but the sake industry is hurting like a MFer now in Japan…

So while I hear you loud and clear, applying the wine analogy to sake (in this instance) is actually apples to oranges on a deeper level.

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This * 1000. Esp during times like this.

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I realize this is a bit of a diversion from your main point — but I would love to hear more about this. Is it simply COVID’s impact or something additional?

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you can tip

Would appreciate screenshots from the phone app of Resy on how to do that, if you (or anyone else) get a chance to order again in the future and highlight where to do that. My friend and one FTCer noticed this issue as well. That’s why I wrote (no obvious)

Screenshots would be very helpful to those who were either pressing buttons too fast and didn’t notice, or perhaps the problem is the location or navigation in the phone app itself of how to. Gives customers a bad image when the ability to tip in the app is not obvious (or worst case not available)…

Or perhaps the feature just isn’t in the phone based app itself but is on the desktop browser version of Resy? But if you say there is, then it’s Resy’s UX design of the phone app that’s the issue…

You can tip on Resy.

Right after you select a time and before you place an order (quickly after F5ing many times at 10am), there is a UI box to tip from 0% to 15%. The default is 0%. I saw this back in September on my laptop.

You might miss placing an order from taking extra time to select the amount to tip on Resy. On Tock, you have a lot more time to choose right after you select a time.

I missed tipping them on Resy the past 2 times since I really wanted to secure my reservations for the Lunch Bento for the fam, so I gave my tips in cash when I went there last week purchasing their sake.

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I guess that’s one way to get off the blacklist.

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This feature could also vary by restaurant. There may be an on/off toggle on the backend.

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Ol’ skool here. Just give cash tip at time of pickup.

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I have scattered bits of information from various sources/people/observing social media accounts related to sake:

  • sake sales were already on the decline before COVID. Shrinking market share to compete with champagne/wine, beer, cocktails, hard liquor. Quite a number of younger folks see sake as an old man’s drink. The number of sake breweries also have shrunk over the years, and quite a number have thought of ways to export to markets far greater (Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Korea, US, EU) where possible. Hong Kong has some really awesome sake bars that carry a good range of craft sake, to my delightful surprise. A Japanese sake friend in Tokyo remarked to me that sake drinkers are more sophisticated in Hong Kong and Taiwan than in Japan (and he works in food beverage/sake distribution etc over there) which surprised me, but this speaks to the declining interest overall which we over here are not able to get a pulse on otherwise.

  • In Japan at many drinking establishments/eateries, it is customary to start with a beer while you decide your order (or at least to help ease into the mood of relaxation)…it’s supposed to lead into eventually ordering sake or what not, but many people start with a beer and never progress. But if you go to neighborhood sake bars, it seems like business as usual, and perhaps the really popular / cult / unicorn / sought after brands are still being purchased (part of it is distribution and marketing/resouces), but your smaller producer artisanal don’t get much love (it’s the same over here actually).

With COVID (only using random scenarios in Tokyo that I could see online)

  • Tokyo is now entering its 4th(?) wave of coronavirus, so sales of food/drink are in flux (ignoring the Michelin hard to get into omakase places)

  • when they had to do a lockdown/shelter in place, many smaller places banned from indoor dining had no means to quickly transition to takeout, with many unknowns they closed indefinitely. If they were buying sake from neighborhood shops, they stopped and existing stock just sat there (some in their refrigerators). Neighborhood shops acquire magnum/1.8L sized bottles geared towards eateries selling them by the glass, and naturally no turnover (even fewer sales). The average residence is so small it’s more convenient for the average person to hit the sake bar or izakaya for 180 mL or 90 mL pours and try multiple glasses than it is to buy a 720 mL bottle (half bottles are actually harder to find in Tokyo, and one cup sake you can only find at a few places with even smaller variety).

  • COVID also wrecked havoc on sake rice farming / distribution. Then they also had torrential storms/rainfall/floods to the west. Dassai for example suffered some terrible damage/loss and earlier this year there was a surplus of Yamadanishiki rice that they use for making sake, and for some time they were exporting/selling bags of that sake rice for home cooking use (Umami Mart carries it in Oakland and available mail order, though they recommend to make risotto with it…)

  • they had to start online petition(s) in Japan to allow alcohol/sake to be sold as takeout and a friend who owns a sake bar in Shibuya had to apply for a special license to do so (more red tape but it had to be done), but at least she could even pour from magnum bottles into smaller containers of up to 4 different sizes, and sell them to go with food. Kind of like how our California department of Alcoholic Beverage Control relaxing the rules allowing restaurants to sell alcohol to go but with more restrictive rules. Luckily it appears they are doing smaller capacity indoor dining more recently and I haven’t seen much takeout action from them.

One other thing I’ve been noticing that’s similar to here, is that sake that were previously very difficult to get, were a bit more easy to acquire, or you would find particular famous bottles through other channels because restaurants weren’t buying them. There’s a very expensive unicorn sake (and a few others almost as prestigious) that somehow made it for export recently, could also be the fact that the brewery couldn’t sell extras in Japan and had to find other ways, perhaps hoping that the US market would absorb them. Likewise there are some sake exported here already prior to the pandemic, that some restaurants now could simply not sell to go (let alone buy from the wholesaler), and are finding other ways to sell them.

Essentially it’s the overall perception of sake (and overall sales) in Japan, it’s not good…even though if you look at just one social media account of a sake bar, it appears on the surface, business as usual. There are definitely pain points hidden from view and we just have to deduct all of that between the lines and make a best guess. This also forces sake breweries to rethink their strategy and marketing, seeing the success from some other of the more famous brands that were able to succeed in Asia.

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I appreciate your perspective and passion for sake.

By the way, do you have a favorite book on sake? I cannot read Japanese.

A serious tangent:
Does anyone know, or have advice, on slicing cucumber pickles like Brandon does? I’ve tried a couple of times, but I just can’t get it that fine without taking multiple minutes per pickle.

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Ah thanks. I’ve gotten it to be about as fine as in this video, but Brandon’s are just that much tighter. Good to know the cut has a name, and that it’s all on my knife skills.

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Never tried it myself, but I would imagine that it’s just a matter of making sure your guide hand moves as slow as possible and using the front third of your knife to get these thinner cuts.

It would also help if your knife is thin, sharp, and is sharpened to an aggressive angle unlike most European style knives.

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i’ve never used the phone app to book, but as @lafoodie mentioned, on the desktop site, there’s a pop-up window that shows up after you select a time with options to tip. if i remember correctly it looks similar to this:

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Hi Hayato Lovers!

I didn’t realize this convo had continued and emailed the question to Hayato before @lafoodie’s accurate post, but here’s a little more info.

They’re moving to Tock on the 1st.

They added a tip field to bento Resy after reopening in August. Previously, they did not allow tipping on bento. I’m not the first to inquire about the issue and he’s not sure if there is a glitch and nobody can see it, or if it’s just hard to see. Someone showed him a screen capture video of purchasing a bento, the tip was controlled by dragging a toggle from 0-15%. He conceded that, of course, everyone is in a rush because the reservation is not finalized until payment is processed, so a lot of people miss it.

All of this is kind of irrelevant after this month because they decided to move both Bento and Orizime reservations to Tock starting December 1st. They’re working out the details.

Chef Go is impressive and super gracious. I posed the questions but didn’t give details about myself or my orders. But he obviously pays close attention to his customers, as he noted the specifics of my 2 orders and also thanked me for ordering sake and said “Every little bit helps.” It was a really nice email.

Happy Hayato Ordering!

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