Some notes… This dough took FOREVER for the bulk ferment (I mentioned that a few threads above). I did cold proof for ~27 hrs after that. Bread initially held its shape well and then started to spread. What’s interesting is that, when I threw it in the dutch oven, it spread out to meet the edges of the vessel, but it had contracted (thankfully) significantly by the time baking was done.
My scoring is getting better.
The crumb is SO, SO moist. Maybe a little TOO moist (bordering on wet). Even though I waited 9+ hrs to cut into it. I added ~double the amt of rye flour that I used last time, and I think that the rye really just makes things too wet. Also, the crust is SO, SO difficult to cut (but relatively easy to chew). I noticed this w/ my last loaf, too. Is it a bread flour thing?
I added the rye b/c I like the taste of Forkish’s overnight country loaf, and I thought the rye added the flavor that I like. Even w/ similar percentages of white, wheat, and rye, this loaf still doesn’t have quite the flavor of his original recipe. Is it b/c I used my own starter, rather than creating a pre-ferment from his recipe?
I think my next loaf will use Forkish’s pre-ferment, and maybe I’ll cut out the rye and use 50/50 AP/bread for the white?
My own starter is 100% hydration. What are other people’s starter hydration?
I also frequently ran into the ‘crusts are tough’ problem. The solutions I’ve discovered are:
1- keep the lid on your dutch oven longer. If it says 20 min @500F with lid, then 20 min @ 450 without, change it to 30/10. or 35/5 even. You won’t get as much browning, but your crust will be thinner and easier to cut.
2- add fat: see my most recent loaf. somewhere around 8-12% (% weight of total flour) of butter or oil will both soften and thin the crust, but make the bread softer and a touch less chewy as well.
I always turn down my heat to 450 after the initial 20 min, regardless of how long I leave the lid on. It probably doesn’t make a difference, but I figured I should mention it. Wouldn’t want to be responsible for burnt loaves.
I halve the recipe since 1 boule at a time is plenty
450 gm KA Bread flour
28gm dark rye + 22 gm wheat (instead of 50gm wheat of half the original recipe); the previous loaf was 15 gm rye, 35 gm wheat
400g tepid water (75°F)
11g salt
20g sourdough starter, unfed/discard
The fresh loaf thread talks about hydration changes for recipes that don’t originally call for rye or wheat; this isn’t the case w/ the KA recipe. I’m also only adding a small percentage of rye flour (and at least one of the posters on that thread said a small change likely wouldn’t require any change adjustment).
Also, I’m not sure what “needs more water” means. From what I can tell from my own experience (and, admittedly, I don’t have as much experience as many on that forum), rye holds onto a lot of water, making for a significantly wetter dough (even after baking), even when only a small amount is added. Some of the posters on that thread have even talked about how gummy their dough is. This is an 80% hydration dough; I don’t think more water is needed.
Maybe it’s different if you substitute A LOT of rye flour. But, again, not the case w/ my dough.
Part of what you may be experiencing is that rye has very little gluten. So it absorbs and holds on to water, but doesn’t contribute to the attendant structure of the bread. An 80% hydration dough made with 100% bread flour will be easier and ‘less wet’ to handle than one made with some percentage of whole wheat or rye.
I haven’t baked w/ rye, so I couldn’t say for certain, but I know in my experiments changing the percentage of whole wheat flour in my bread, or swapping out the bread flour and using AP (both with much less gluten than bread flour), the resultant dough, while the same percentage hydration, was NOTICEABLY more slack, and much trickier to handle and shape. If feels ‘wetter’ because it just runs and spreads, and will be much flatter on the bench or when you transfer it to your dutch oven…
Maybe it’s actually drier on the surface, but the lower gluten leads to a weaker web, and thus more slack dough. At least, that’s been my experience.
I only skimmed this and have no idea what a “falling number” is. But (from the sheet):
Though rye does have gluten, it is in low amounts and does not develop well in the dough. Rye is high in pentosan starches which bind to water and inhibit the development of gluten. Rye bread relies on these and other starches for its structure, rather than gluten. If it is fermented for too long, the starches degrade, the loaf winds up with poor volume and a gummy texture.
I actually wonder if my long ferment (longer than the previous loaf, which had an identical amt of starter) was actually b/c of the small amt of rye inhibiting the gluten formation! Slower gluten formation = longer ferment = more starch degradation = gummier dough!
Edit: forgot to mention that my experience w/ rye mirrors what @lectroid mentions w/ lower gluten flours.
So the T80 is a blend of whole wheat and bread flour already and imo it’s what a lot of these formulas are trying to imitate each in their own way. It’s never really been available at the consumer level until recently. It’s got a high ash content but is very easy to use /handle the dough ime.
it’s the freshness that matters to me the most. Shelf flours are there for a long time. If you feed starter the night before then refresh it’ll do much better for you.
I’m lazy and stick to commercial yeast and pre-ferments. Makes that variable easier to control for me. I’ll never get that extra that you guys do from the Sourdough but i like the predictability
The taste, mostly. makes for awesome sandwiches and breakfast toast. Also really good with many cheeses. a good contrast that brings out their sweetness that often hides behind salt…
And, you know, for about 6 mo. there finding commercial yeast was a whole thing. This is basically ‘grow your own.’
