Well, of course Tamicov would also have far greater effectiveness than Tamiflu or Remdesivir.
9 posts were merged into an existing topic: Random discussion of Covid-19 not specifically related to restaurants or food
We had a really good discussion going on this subject since early May, and I’d like to get back to that.
The public and government in the US are now clear that air circulation in enclosed spaces is an important issue. This after so many months.
It would be an arduous long and tedious process, but if not already taken into account in recent years by environmental engineers in the design phase of new restaurants, then at least in older and smaller places the airflow patterns could be evaluated, with simple hand-held tools and a layout map, by the owners themselves. Corrective measures should be subsidized, IMO.
The key to successfully re-opening dine-in restaurants is public trust that there are no stagnant zones inside (such as is often the case in corners); no pathways of low-speed air movement that pass directly over people’s faces – especially cross-table and table-to-table; abundant ventilation; and HEPA filtration throughout, portable or fixed. People don’t want to feel like they’re putting themselves and others at risk of getting sick by dining inside at a restaurant. That fact, in the context of this readily infectious, unusual coronavirus variant, has to be confronted and acted on more than just by spacing tables and reducing the number of people inside.
The (federal, state, local) government should also, IMO, sponsor retrofitting all recirculating HVAC systems in indoor spaces with HEPA filters, especially in restaurants and bars, throughout the country. Where retrofitting isn’t feasible, there are moveable, commercial indoor HEPA filter devices available that could be scattered about to the extent necessary to eliminate viral recirculation. Aesthetics is an issue, but so were “localized” outdoor heaters at restaurants before the now ubiquitous, gas-fired, pyramid-shaped, aesthetically-pleasing (and actually attractive) ones came along. A sticker on the door could show that a restaurant had such filtration, much like the “It’s cool inside” bills when a/c first came to shops, theaters, and restaurants in the '50s – which as a promotional plus brought in business.
Yes, restaurants can be made safe.
The idea that closing restaurants will help with stopping corona is a concept of elitists who clearly have never spent time with the lower class people they pretend to care about.
Let just ignore science. People who call other elitists tend to be the ones who are not connected to “normal” life but just live with conspiracy theories, deep states and worship to their “leader”
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Not worth the effort as even with checking airflows, changing filters etc. many people won’t take the risk of dining in a restaurant until there is a vaccine. You could spend the billion of dollars to re-engineer restaurants for many other issues.
Perhaps. But I would be more inclined to dine in a restaurant posting an “A” approval from the Health Department (or whatever), vis-à-vis comprehensive covid protections – including airflow – than one with a “B” or a “C”.
You might be an exception- I doubt that more than 30% of previous restaurant customers would be willing to eat inside a restaurant before a vaccine is available. You always hear (and I agree) from people like Fauci that there are currently two things he would really avoid - flying and eating inside a restaurant
I’d like to debate that. The most powerful force is the sociological one in terms of acceptance and success of any widespread measure. Social acceptance of safety is key.
For example, The Holy Grail Vaccine. When one finally becomes available, and even before distribution and inoculations have started, a major social transformation will begin to take place, vis-à-vis covid – almost certainly. It’ll be a widespread sociological phenomenon, a paradigm shift. People will feel they’ve finally been liberated, justified or not, and respond. It’ll have almost certain universal social acceptance: “The knight on the white horse has arrived and will save us.”
Meanwhile, on a more immediate and mundane but critical level, HEPA filters in enclosed spaces that have recirculating air can help a lot, preventing tiny airborne virus clusters from even approaching the threshold of volumetric concentration for infection.
In the whole scheme of things right now, portable HEPA filters are not that much of a cost burden, while the potential benefits for restaurants and bars are enormous. The public has to feel confident that it’s safe to dine indoors in restaurants.
I know this: I for one would feel better in a dine-in where there are HEPA units scattered about, like space-heaters, or in larger places that have central HEPA filtration.
Modular HEPA air-cleaning units, I’d need to see that they worked for care homes and the like.
“Surface transmission of COVID-19 is not justified at all by the science,” Emanuel Goldman, a microbiology professor at Rutgers New Jersey Medical School, told me. … All those studies that made COVID-19 seem likely to live for days on metal and paper bags were based on unrealistically strong concentrations of the virus. As he explained to me, as many as 100 people would need to sneeze on the same area of a table to mimic some of their experimental conditions. The studies “stacked the deck to get a result that bears no resemblance to the real world.”
This is a really good article. I hope this kind of information gets a wider public audience.
I think that care homes should have HEPA filtration in the HVAC system, but if nothing else, placing a portable HEPA unit in each room would help. An experiment of some sort (using a safe particulate airborne tracer to enable measurements) in care homes would be of interest, to address your concern. I really can’t understand why this hasn’t even been tried.
I did read about a restaurant somewhere (can’t find the article again) where the owner did in fact place portable HEPA filters inside. How effective are they? Well, there were no measurements, but they have to help some. Also, I recall that Gov. Cuomo was considering requiring HEPA filters in shopping malls as a condition for re-opening. (Not sure if he followed up on that, it was a couple of months ago. I think.)
Portable filters would only reduce the concentration of virus particles. No informed and prudent person would consider that a reasonable alternative to a steady supply of fresh air sufficient to keep the concentration similar to that of outdoor air.
I wouldn’t be so sure - it will depend on many factors, e.g. trust in quality of clinical trial etc. and I really doubt that the “social transformation” will take place before distribution - it might even take time after many people already got their vaccine that people will go back to the “old” normal, including restaurant visits.
I really doubt that HEPA filter will make people confident that it is safe to eat in restaurants again (it wouldn’t make me confident) as there will always be a danger that somebody sneezes close by etc and you never know the possible consequences. Without a vaccine people won’t go back to restaurants indoor.
A post was merged into an existing topic: Random discussion of Covid-19 not specifically related to restaurants or food
One thing about this that I really don’t understand is why tables can’t have a covering or place settings, and/or condiments (exteriors sanitized, of course), in place before you’re seated. This rule vectors towards a very blah atmosphere when you come in, no matter how hard the owners try.
Do you want to exchange the condiments every time after each customer ? That would be pretty expensive and not sure if I want my condiments disinfected and not knowing what they are using regarding residues.
There’s no real reason. It’s hygiene theater.
From an email from Angler SF announcing their reopening:
Our Commitment To You
- Each employee will be pre-screened for good health prior to their shift
- Each employee will be wearing a face covering and gloves
- We will do our best to maintain distance when serving your table and ask that you do the same when moving through the restaurant. Tables will be spaced at least 6 feet apart
- Employees will wash and sanitize their hands frequently
- High traffic areas, all surfaces, and public restrooms will be sanitized regularly
- Our air will be continuously filtered using the AirBox filtration system, which filters up to 3000 square feet of air from bacteria, mold, pollen, and viruses (including COVID-19)
Your Commitment To Us
- By entering the establishment you are vouching that everyone in your party is in good health, not experiencing any flu like symptoms, and/or have come into contact with anyone that has COVID-19
- By making a reservation, you are agreeing to have your temperature prior to being sat/allowed into the building you use our restroom
- Face masks will be required when moving through the restaurant, when not eating & drinking, and when interacting with our staff
- Hand washing capabilities and sanitizer will be provided for all guests. We ask that you wash your hands and sanitize them regularly